Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I know that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use Ctrl- Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
Also, to return to the line-related bindings, I think this might be better: Ctrl-K Copy lines Ctrl-Shift-K Cut lines Ctrl-Shift-L Delete lines
The advantages being consistency and making it harder to do destructive actions (having to hold shift, as discussed before). This would mean the 'Scroll to current line' binding would also need to be changed from Ctrl-Shift-L, perhaps left unbound.
Thoughts?
Regards, Nick
Deleting lines is something I do a lot of so I tend to think that a highly used action shouldn't be 3 keys away.
bd
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:06:37 +0100 Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I know that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use Ctrl- Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
Also, to return to the line-related bindings, I think this might be better: Ctrl-K Copy lines Ctrl-Shift-K Cut lines Ctrl-Shift-L Delete lines
The advantages being consistency and making it harder to do destructive actions (having to hold shift, as discussed before). This would mean the 'Scroll to current line' binding would also need to be changed from Ctrl-Shift-L, perhaps left unbound.
Thoughts?
Regards, Nick _______________________________________________ Geany mailing list Geany@uvena.de http://uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany
On 08/30/2007 12:22:52 PM, blackdog wrote:
Deleting lines is something I do a lot of so I tend to think that a highly used action shouldn't be 3 keys away.
Yes, this was also mentioned by John Gabriele. I still think it might be better for copy and cut to be together, but maybe delete lines should be something easier to type - ctrl-J maybe (just because it's near k,l)?
Regards, Nick
sounds good, but being a left hander I'll move it to the other side anyway :). i haven't read previous discussions but I'd say stick with something bog standard, visual studio keybindings or something (i don't use VS btw), make it easy for those coming to the product to feel at home; more experienced users will probably all rebind anyway.
bd
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:47:00 +0100 Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
On 08/30/2007 12:22:52 PM, blackdog wrote:
Deleting lines is something I do a lot of so I tend to think that a highly used action shouldn't be 3 keys away.
Yes, this was also mentioned by John Gabriele. I still think it might be better for copy and cut to be together, but maybe delete lines should be something easier to type - ctrl-J maybe (just because it's near k,l)?
Regards, Nick _______________________________________________ Geany mailing list Geany@uvena.de http://uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:47:00 +0100 Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
On 08/30/2007 12:22:52 PM, blackdog wrote:
Deleting lines is something I do a lot of so I tend to think that a highly used action shouldn't be 3 keys away.
Yes, this was also mentioned by John Gabriele. I still think it might be better for copy and cut to be together, but maybe delete lines should be something easier to type - ctrl-J maybe (just because it's near k,l)?
I live for the day I can delete lines in Geany using ctrl-y :)
On 08/30/2007 12:47:00 PM, Nick Treleaven wrote:
On 08/30/2007 12:22:52 PM, blackdog wrote:
Deleting lines is something I do a lot of so I tend to think that a highly used action shouldn't be 3 keys away.
Yes, this was also mentioned by John Gabriele. I still think it might be better for copy and cut to be together, but maybe delete lines should be something easier to type - ctrl-J maybe (just because it's near k,l)?
Another idea: keep ctrl-K for delete lines (it's the Emacs binding, for one thing, and it's the most common of the 3. Also I think of it as Kill lines...)
Then to make cut lines and copy lines more on an equal footing: ctrl-shift-x cut lines ctrl-shift-c copy lines
At least that would be easy to remember.
Regards, Nick
On 8/31/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
On 08/30/2007 12:47:00 PM, Nick Treleaven wrote:
On 08/30/2007 12:22:52 PM, blackdog wrote:
Deleting lines is something I do a lot of so I tend to think that a highly used action shouldn't be 3 keys away.
Yes, this was also mentioned by John Gabriele. I still think it might be better for copy and cut to be together, but maybe delete lines should be something easier to type - ctrl-J maybe (just because it's near k,l)?
Another idea: keep ctrl-K for delete lines (it's the Emacs binding, for one thing, and it's the most common of the 3. Also I think of it as Kill lines...)
Then to make cut lines and copy lines more on an equal footing: ctrl-shift-x cut lines ctrl-shift-c copy lines
At least that would be easy to remember.
For GUI apps, folks strongly associate Ctrl-{X,C} with {cut,copy}. If you want to use the Shift key to "extend" the cut or copy operation, I don't think it makes sense to have it deal only specifically with lines. Why not words? Or paragraphs?
I think there's a temptation to try and associate key combos to every feature one can. In this case, unless there's a fair number of users who frequently use cut-current-line and copy-current-line regularly, I think they could stand to be dropped from the default key bindings. Most users will probably instead always just use Shift-Alt-{W,L,P} to select the thing they want, then use Ctrl-{X,C}. Or else they'll use Shift with the arrow keys, or even ... {gulp} ... the mouse. :)
Ctrl-K works well to cut the current line, and I think lots of folks are familiar with it, so I think it makes a good default key combo. One nice thing you might add to the preferences is to let users configure whether Ctrl-K cuts the whole current line, or else cuts from the current cursor position to the end of the line (as Emacs does). GNU nano has an option like this.
Regarding using Ctrl-Alt rather than Shift-Alt: I think it's more consistent to use Shift-Alt as the default, since it's analogous to using Shift-Ctrl. Also, Ctrl-Alt-D and Ctrl-Alt-L would conflict with Gnome (as previously mentioned). However, for folks using keyboards that make Shift-Alt a difficult combo to hit, how about adding an item in the Preferences to globally use Ctrl-Alt in place of Shift-Alt?
Regarding the issue with Ctrl-U and Shift-Ctrl-U: changing the case of a selection, though useful, seems like a *relatively* rarely-needed feature. IMO, you could drop these two default key bindings, letting users reach them via Alt-E F {L,U} -- which is actually pretty mnemonic in itself (it reads like "edit format {lower,upper}").
By the way, as long as we're revisiting keyboard shortcuts, I think it makes more sense to use Ctrl-{Up,Down} to go up and down by paragraph (instead of Ctrl-[ and Ctrl-], which I just now notice aren't listed in the "Help --> Keyboard Shortcuts" dialog). Both combos are easy enough to hit, but Ctrl-{Up,Down} seems to make more sense, given what Ctrl-{Right,Left} do. Currently, Ctrl-{Up,Down} scroll the window by-line which I think is more of a GUI operation that should maybe be associated with an Alt-key combo (like Alt-{Up,Down}).
---John
On 09/02/2007 01:06:31 AM, John Gabriele wrote:
On 8/31/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Another idea: keep ctrl-K for delete lines (it's the Emacs binding,
for
one thing, and it's the most common of the 3. Also I think of it as Kill lines...)
Then to make cut lines and copy lines more on an equal footing: ctrl-shift-x cut lines ctrl-shift-c copy lines
At least that would be easy to remember.
For GUI apps, folks strongly associate Ctrl-{X,C} with {cut,copy}. If you want to use the Shift key to "extend" the cut or copy operation, I don't think it makes sense to have it deal only specifically with lines. Why not words? Or paragraphs?
Well, primarily Geany is a programmer's editor, and IME manipulating lines when programming is much more common than words or paragraphs. For those things personally I'm used to having to select them first.
I think there's a temptation to try and associate key combos to every feature one can. In this case, unless there's a fair number of users who frequently use cut-current-line and copy-current-line regularly, I think they could stand to be dropped from the default key bindings. Most users will probably instead always just use Shift-Alt-{W,L,P} to select the thing they want, then use Ctrl-{X,C}. Or else they'll use Shift with the arrow keys, or even ... {gulp} ... the mouse. :)
What else are we going to use Ctrl-Shift-[XC] for? Adding shift should mean something relevant to cutting and copying, and to me at least, lines seemed a natural extension of that. Scintilla provides default bindings for cutting and copying lines (ctrl-l, ctrl-shift-t, IIRC), which we've disabled - to me that suggested they were common actions.
Ctrl-K works well to cut the current line, and I think lots of folks are familiar with it, so I think it makes a good default key combo. One nice thing you might add to the preferences is to let users configure whether Ctrl-K cuts the whole current line, or else cuts from the current cursor position to the end of the line (as Emacs does). GNU nano has an option like this.
I guess you meant delete, not cut.
Personally, I don't think this is necessary, because we have ctrl- shift-delete to do that. Also there's a nice symmetry with ctrl-shift- backspace to delete to the start of the line, and that without shift these apply to words, instead of lines.
Regarding using Ctrl-Alt rather than Shift-Alt: I think it's more consistent to use Shift-Alt as the default, since it's analogous to using Shift-Ctrl.
I don't see this - surely with Shift-Alt you just swap ctrl for alt, and ctrl-alt you swap shift for alt, what's the difference?
Also, Ctrl-Alt-D and Ctrl-Alt-L would conflict with Gnome (as previously mentioned).
This is a problem - not sure what to do about it yet. Perhaps we could just avoid those ones, but that would mean reordering some bindings for consistency.
However, for folks using keyboards that make Shift-Alt a difficult combo to hit, how about adding an item in the Preferences to globally use Ctrl-Alt in place of Shift-Alt?
Well, it seems messy, and the option wouldn't work properly for Gnome.
Regarding the issue with Ctrl-U and Shift-Ctrl-U: changing the case of a selection, though useful, seems like a *relatively* rarely-needed feature. IMO, you could drop these two default key bindings, letting users reach them via Alt-E F {L,U} -- which is actually pretty mnemonic in itself (it reads like "edit format {lower,upper}").
I think most GUI apps avoid sequential keybindings - also some people don't like it.
By the way, as long as we're revisiting keyboard shortcuts, I think it makes more sense to use Ctrl-{Up,Down} to go up and down by paragraph (instead of Ctrl-[ and Ctrl-], which I just now notice aren't listed in the "Help --> Keyboard Shortcuts" dialog).
(That's because they're fixed keybindings.)
Both combos are easy enough to hit, but Ctrl-{Up,Down} seems to make more sense, given what Ctrl-{Right,Left} do. Currently, Ctrl-{Up,Down} scroll the window by-line which I think is more of a GUI operation that should maybe be associated with an Alt-key combo (like Alt-{Up,Down}).
I like that argument ;-)
Regards, Nick
On 9/3/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
On 09/02/2007 01:06:31 AM, John Gabriele wrote:
Ctrl-K works well to cut the current line, and I think lots of folks are familiar with it, so I think it makes a good default key combo. One nice thing you might add to the preferences is to let users configure whether Ctrl-K cuts the whole current line, or else cuts from the current cursor position to the end of the line (as Emacs does). GNU nano has an option like this.
I guess you meant delete, not cut.
Whoops. Yes, Delete.
Personally, I don't think this is necessary, because we have ctrl- shift-delete to do that. Also there's a nice symmetry with ctrl-shift- backspace to delete to the start of the line, and that without shift these apply to words, instead of lines.
Right. You're right. Forgot about those. Thanks.
---John
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:37:40 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
By the way, as long as we're revisiting keyboard shortcuts, I think it makes more sense to use Ctrl-{Up,Down} to go up and down by paragraph (instead of Ctrl-[ and Ctrl-], which I just now notice aren't listed in the "Help --> Keyboard Shortcuts" dialog).
(That's because they're fixed keybindings.)
"Unfixed" in SVN r1854. They are now changeable.
I don't like to use Ctrl-{Up,Down} for scrolling by paragraphs because I guess it's more rarely used in Geany than e.g. scrolling by lines but at least, now it is user configurable.
Regards, Enrico
On 9/5/07, Enrico Tröger enrico.troeger@uvena.de wrote:
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:37:40 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
By the way, as long as we're revisiting keyboard shortcuts, I think it makes more sense to use Ctrl-{Up,Down} to go up and down by paragraph (instead of Ctrl-[ and Ctrl-], which I just now notice aren't listed in the "Help --> Keyboard Shortcuts" dialog).
(That's because they're fixed keybindings.)
"Unfixed"
Heh. :)
in SVN r1854. They are now changeable.
This is very nice. I just set scroll up-/down-by-line to Alt-{Up,Down} and it feels very natural for Geany (IMO). Ctrl for moving the cursor, Alt for moving the GUI works well for me, thanks.
In fact, while you're at it, if you want to round out the key combos, you might also consider adding commands to scroll the window horizontally. With Alt-{Left,Right} attached to those commands, they'd go well with Alt-{Up,Down} for moving the view around in 2 dimensions.
I don't like to use Ctrl-{Up,Down} for scrolling by paragraphs because I guess it's more rarely used in Geany than e.g. scrolling by lines but at least, now it is user configurable.
I'm sorry, I'm confused. I see you just enabled users to change key combos for scrolling the window line-by-line, which is very nice (thanks!). Did you also enable users to configure which keys do up-/down-by-paragraph? Note, I'm happy using Ctrl-[ and Ctrl-], and I'm guessing most american/english users are happy too -- I only mention options about changing those since (A) I thought Ctrl-{Up,Down} would be more consistent, and (B) you mentioned they were difficult to hit on a german keyboard.
---John
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:57:51 -0400, "John Gabriele" jmg3000@gmail.com wrote:
On 9/5/07, Enrico Tröger enrico.troeger@uvena.de wrote:
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:37:40 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
By the way, as long as we're revisiting keyboard shortcuts, I think it makes more sense to use Ctrl-{Up,Down} to go up and down by paragraph (instead of Ctrl-[ and Ctrl-], which I just now notice aren't listed in the "Help --> Keyboard Shortcuts" dialog).
(That's because they're fixed keybindings.)
"Unfixed"
Heh. :)
in SVN r1854. They are now changeable.
This is very nice. I just set scroll up-/down-by-line to Alt-{Up,Down} and it feels very natural for Geany (IMO). Ctrl for moving the cursor, Alt for moving the GUI works well for me, thanks.
In fact, while you're at it, if you want to round out the key combos, you might also consider adding commands to scroll the window horizontally. With Alt-{Left,Right} attached to those commands, they'd go well with Alt-{Up,Down} for moving the view around in 2 dimensions.
Nice idea. The question is whether it is an often enough used feature to add two more keybindings for it. Technically, it isn't a problem.
I don't like to use Ctrl-{Up,Down} for scrolling by paragraphs because I guess it's more rarely used in Geany than e.g. scrolling by lines but at least, now it is user configurable.
I'm sorry, I'm confused. I see you just enabled users to change key combos for scrolling the window line-by-line, which is very nice (thanks!). Did you also enable users to configure which keys do up-/down-by-paragraph? Note, I'm happy using Ctrl-[ and Ctrl-], and
No.
I'm guessing most american/english users are happy too -- I only mention options about changing those since (A) I thought Ctrl-{Up,Down} would be more consistent, and (B) you mentioned they were difficult to hit on a german keyboard.
Yes. Changing them would mean to add again two additional keybindings.
Regards, Enrico
On 8/30/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I know that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use Ctrl- Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
It seems to me that GUI programs usually use the Shift key, with either Ctrl or Alt, whereas terminal-based programs only use the Shift key to reach various non-alphanumeric symbols.
For example, Emacs most often uses pairs of keys to do complimentary features (like Ctrl-S and Ctrl-R for forward and reverse search), and then augments them using the Alt key (here, for example, Ctrl-Alt-S and Ctrl-Alt-R for forward and reverse *regex* search).
Using only Ctrl-foo and Ctrl-Alt-foo key combos is pretty self-consistent (note, Emacs also uses Alt-foo keys, which for Geany are only used for manipulating GUI elements). And it's pretty easy to remember too, since you never have to consider, "was that capital or lowercase?"
Using Shift along with various Ctrl-foo and Alt-foo keys is also pretty self-consistent. Though, one problem I have is, every time I try to hit Shift-Ctrl-r, I keep getting Ctrl-R instead! ;)
If you start having Ctrl-Alt-foo keys in Geany, you begin to get a lot of keys to remember ("Can't remember that key combo. Was it Ctrl-L? Shift-Ctrl-L? Shift-Alt-L? Ctrl-Alt-L? How about Shift-Ctrl-Alt-L?").
---John
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:46:31 -0400, "John Gabriele" jmg3000@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/30/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I know that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use Ctrl- Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
It seems to me that GUI programs usually use the Shift key, with either Ctrl or Alt, whereas terminal-based programs only use the Shift key to reach various non-alphanumeric symbols.
For example, Emacs most often uses pairs of keys to do complimentary
Did I ever mention Geany != Emacs? ;-).
Using only Ctrl-foo and Ctrl-Alt-foo key combos is pretty self-consistent (note, Emacs also uses Alt-foo keys, which for Geany are only used for manipulating GUI elements). And it's pretty easy to remember too, since you never have to consider, "was that capital or lowercase?"
Using Shift along with various Ctrl-foo and Alt-foo keys is also pretty self-consistent. Though, one problem I have is, every time I try to hit Shift-Ctrl-r, I keep getting Ctrl-R instead! ;)
Because it is the same. I don't understand the problem. How could Ctrl-Shift-r and Ctrl-R be anything different?
If you start having Ctrl-Alt-foo keys in Geany, you begin to get a lot of keys to remember ("Can't remember that key combo. Was it Ctrl-L? Shift-Ctrl-L? Shift-Alt-L? Ctrl-Alt-L? How about Shift-Ctrl-Alt-L?").
I don't see the difference. Does it matter whether you remember Ctrl-Alt-key or Ctrl-Shift-key? And as an Emacs user you should be used to remember a lot of strange key combos ;-). (SCNR)
Regards, Enrico
On 8/31/07, Enrico Tröger enrico.troeger@uvena.de wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:46:31 -0400, "John Gabriele" jmg3000@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/30/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I know that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use Ctrl- Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
It seems to me that GUI programs usually use the Shift key, with either Ctrl or Alt, whereas terminal-based programs only use the Shift key to reach various non-alphanumeric symbols.
For example, Emacs most often uses pairs of keys to do complimentary
Did I ever mention Geany != Emacs? ;-).
Right. For the purposes of the discussion though, I was just using it as an example of a system that does key combos differently than Geany.
Using only Ctrl-foo and Ctrl-Alt-foo key combos is pretty self-consistent (note, Emacs also uses Alt-foo keys, which for Geany are only used for manipulating GUI elements). And it's pretty easy to remember too, since you never have to consider, "was that capital or lowercase?"
Using Shift along with various Ctrl-foo and Alt-foo keys is also pretty self-consistent. Though, one problem I have is, every time I try to hit Shift-Ctrl-r, I keep getting Ctrl-R instead! ;)
Because it is the same. I don't understand the problem. How could Ctrl-Shift-r and Ctrl-R be anything different?
Whoops. Failed attempt at me trying to make a joke. Also, maybe I should start putting a hyphen in my smilies. :) err... :-)
If you start having Ctrl-Alt-foo keys in Geany, you begin to get a lot of keys to remember ("Can't remember that key combo. Was it Ctrl-L? Shift-Ctrl-L? Shift-Alt-L? Ctrl-Alt-L? How about Shift-Ctrl-Alt-L?").
I don't see the difference. Does it matter whether you remember Ctrl-Alt-key or Ctrl-Shift-key?
I don't think so, no. If you change *all* Shift-Alt combos to Ctrl-Alt combos, then I guess it doesn't matter.
Note, Gnome uses Ctrl-Alt-L to lock the screen, and Ctrl-Alt-D to hide all windows.
And as an Emacs user you should be used to remember a lot of strange key combos ;-). (SCNR)
Hardy har har. :-) Actually, since Emacs doesn't use the Shift key to change commands, the key combos seem pretty simple. The only extra complication you get with Emacs is prefix key combos, which does a pretty good job of sectioning off various commands.
---John
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:45:21 -0400, "John Gabriele" jmg3000@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/31/07, Enrico Tröger enrico.troeger@uvena.de wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:46:31 -0400, "John Gabriele" jmg3000@gmail.com wrote:
On 8/30/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I know that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use Ctrl- Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
It seems to me that GUI programs usually use the Shift key, with either Ctrl or Alt, whereas terminal-based programs only use the Shift key to reach various non-alphanumeric symbols.
For example, Emacs most often uses pairs of keys to do complimentary
Did I ever mention Geany != Emacs? ;-).
Right. For the purposes of the discussion though, I was just using it as an example of a system that does key combos differently than Geany.
Sure, this was just a joke by me ;-).
Using only Ctrl-foo and Ctrl-Alt-foo key combos is pretty self-consistent (note, Emacs also uses Alt-foo keys, which for Geany are only used for manipulating GUI elements). And it's pretty easy to remember too, since you never have to consider, "was that capital or lowercase?"
Using Shift along with various Ctrl-foo and Alt-foo keys is also pretty self-consistent. Though, one problem I have is, every time I try to hit Shift-Ctrl-r, I keep getting Ctrl-R instead! ;)
Because it is the same. I don't understand the problem. How could Ctrl-Shift-r and Ctrl-R be anything different?
Whoops. Failed attempt at me trying to make a joke. Also, maybe I should start putting a hyphen in my smilies. :) err... :-)
Hehe, sorry. I really didn't see the smiley at the end and took this seriously. I need more sleep.
And as an Emacs user you should be used to remember a lot of strange key combos ;-). (SCNR)
Hardy har har. :-) Actually, since Emacs doesn't use the Shift key to change commands, the key combos seem pretty simple. The only extra complication you get with Emacs is prefix key combos, which does a pretty good job of sectioning off various commands.
The prefix key combos are what I meant. Sure they separate different groups of actions but you have to type one key combo more than usual (usual outside of the Emacs world ;-)). Just irritating for me personally.
Regards, Enrico
Not sure if this has been covered in an earlier mail. It would be nice to have short-cuts to display and access the different UI elements such as "Sidebar", "Message Window", Different tabs within the sidebar and message window.
I tend to hide/unhide sidebar/message window often enough that I would love to have a shortcut.
regards Shiv
On 09/01/2007 03:32:06 AM, S h i v wrote:
Not sure if this has been covered in an earlier mail. It would be nice to have short-cuts to display and access the different UI elements such as "Sidebar", "Message Window", Different tabs within the sidebar and message window.
I tend to hide/unhide sidebar/message window often enough that I would love to have a shortcut.
There are keybindings to toggle the sidebar and message window - see the View menu heading. Or do you mean default keybindings for these?
There are shortcuts for switching to Scribble and VTE message window tabs. Would Compiler and Messages shortcuts get used much?
For the sidebar, do you use the keyboard to navigate items in it? I assumed everyone just used the mouse, and clicking on the tab first wouldn't be more effort than pressing a keybinding.
Regards, Nick
Just to get my opinion stated,
If I could do everything without touching my mouse, I'd be really happy. Everything includes switching buffers, going to the sidebar, switching views there, moving up and down lists, trees, etc, moving back to the edit window, opening/saving/closing files, doing some common editing things like switching to/from upper case (even capitalization is useful; I used it a lot in emacs), formatting code, etc. navigating to the message/terminal/output windows and back... [I know many of the things mentioned are already bound to key shortcuts]
See, I really don't like using the mouse. I get my fingers on the right place on the keyboard and that's good. When I have to use Mr. Mouse and come back I invariably start typing the wrong thing because my right hand locates itself one key to the left or right.
So, just my viewpoint. I use Geany all the time. Love it. Don't plan to switch to anything else anytime soon. Don't change any plans cause of me.
chuck
Nick Treleaven wrote:
On 09/01/2007 03:32:06 AM, S h i v wrote:
Not sure if this has been covered in an earlier mail. It would be nice to have short-cuts to display and access the different UI elements such as "Sidebar", "Message Window", Different tabs within the sidebar and message window.
I tend to hide/unhide sidebar/message window often enough that I would love to have a shortcut.
There are keybindings to toggle the sidebar and message window - see the View menu heading. Or do you mean default keybindings for these?
There are shortcuts for switching to Scribble and VTE message window tabs. Would Compiler and Messages shortcuts get used much?
For the sidebar, do you use the keyboard to navigate items in it? I assumed everyone just used the mouse, and clicking on the tab first wouldn't be more effort than pressing a keybinding.
Regards, Nick
Geany mailing list Geany@uvena.de http://uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany
On 08/30/2007 06:46:31 PM, John Gabriele wrote:
On 8/30/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I
know
that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use
Ctrl-
Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
It seems to me that GUI programs usually use the Shift key, with either Ctrl or Alt, whereas terminal-based programs only use the Shift key to reach various non-alphanumeric symbols.
Can you give some examples of Alt-Shift usage - it just seems like an awkward combination, and I thought it would be the least preferable combination of two out of Ctrl, Alt, Shift.
[...] Though, one problem I have is, every time I try to hit Shift-Ctrl-r, I keep getting Ctrl-R instead! ;)
What do you mean - that the Shift key wasn't held down enough, or that Ctrl-Shift keybindings just don't work for some reason?
If you start having Ctrl-Alt-foo keys in Geany, you begin to get a lot of keys to remember ("Can't remember that key combo. Was it Ctrl-L? Shift-Ctrl-L? Shift-Alt-L? Ctrl-Alt-L? How about Shift-Ctrl-Alt-L?").
I was saying to replace all the Shift-Alt-X bindings with Ctrl-Alt-X, just because on most keyboards it seems easier to type.
Perhaps we can make a pattern to the keybindings - e.g. at the moment all bar one of the Alt-Shift bindings is for selecting something.
Regards, Nick
On 8/31/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
On 08/30/2007 06:46:31 PM, John Gabriele wrote:
On 8/30/07, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I
know
that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use
Ctrl-
Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
It seems to me that GUI programs usually use the Shift key, with either Ctrl or Alt, whereas terminal-based programs only use the Shift key to reach various non-alphanumeric symbols.
Can you give some examples of Alt-Shift usage - it just seems like an awkward combination, and I thought it would be the least preferable combination of two out of Ctrl, Alt, Shift.
I just meant, in general, since bash (for example) doesn't care about case when you're using Ctrl or Alt key combos (afaict).
Specifically though, no, now that you mention it, I just looked at a bunch of GUI apps on my system (including Gedit and Scite), and none use much besides Ctrl-foo and Shift-Ctrl-foo. They sometimes use the Fkeys, too, possibly as a punishment of some kind. ;-)
[snip]
If you start having Ctrl-Alt-foo keys in Geany, you begin to get a lot of keys to remember ("Can't remember that key combo. Was it Ctrl-L? Shift-Ctrl-L? Shift-Alt-L? Ctrl-Alt-L? How about Shift-Ctrl-Alt-L?").
I was saying to replace all the Shift-Alt-X bindings with Ctrl-Alt-X, just because on most keyboards it seems easier to type.
Ah. I use an ergonomic keyboard that has the keys set up so Shift-Ctrl and Shift-Alt are both really easy to hit with either hand. I forget that others might not have it so easy.
Perhaps we can make a pattern to the keybindings - e.g. at the moment all bar one of the Alt-Shift bindings is for selecting something.
I think maximizing consistency is a great idea.
---John
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:06:37 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all, I noticed in the Balsa email client they used Ctrl-Alt-F for one shortcut - are there any problems with using Ctrl-Alt-[a-z0-9]? I know that Ctrl-Alt-F[1-12] are taken for consoles. If there aren't any important conflicts with window managers, perhaps we should use
I don't know about any other conflicts.
Ctrl- Alt instead of Alt-Shift for some bindings - Alt-Shift seems more difficult to hold down because they are diagonally separated.
Yes, Alt-Shift is terrible to press.
Also, to return to the line-related bindings, I think this might be better: Ctrl-K Copy lines Ctrl-Shift-K Cut lines Ctrl-Shift-L Delete lines
I don't care. I mostly don't use these bindings and so I think we should use the most common case for all people(not only for John, not only for emacs users, not only for left handed people ;-)).
Regards, Enrico
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:06:37 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all,
when talking again about keybindings, let's talk about Ctrl-U and Ctrl-Shift-U. Do we want to change this, maybe really changing it to just toggle the case of current selection or do we want to leave it unset or just don't change it?
One reason for changing would be the mentioned Unicode insertion keybinding which is (non-changeable) Ctrl-Shift-U.
Regards, Enrico
On 08/31/2007 11:46:31 PM, Enrico Tröger wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:06:37 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all,
when talking again about keybindings, let's talk about Ctrl-U and Ctrl-Shift-U. Do we want to change this, maybe really changing it to just toggle the case of current selection or do we want to leave it unset or just don't change it?
One reason for changing would be the mentioned Unicode insertion keybinding which is (non-changeable) Ctrl-Shift-U.
I think a toggle keybinding would be fine, defaulting to lowercase first if there's a mixture of cases used (can be useful when typing with caps lock accidently left on).
Regards, Nick
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:40:26 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
On 08/31/2007 11:46:31 PM, Enrico Tröger wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:06:37 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all,
when talking again about keybindings, let's talk about Ctrl-U and Ctrl-Shift-U. Do we want to change this, maybe really changing it to just toggle the case of current selection or do we want to leave it unset or just don't change it?
One reason for changing would be the mentioned Unicode insertion keybinding which is (non-changeable) Ctrl-Shift-U.
I think a toggle keybinding would be fine, defaulting to lowercase first if there's a mixture of cases used (can be useful when typing with caps lock accidently left on).
Good idea. I think we should change it unless anyone will complain loudly ;-).
Regards, Enrico
On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:02:30 +0200, Enrico Tröger enrico.troeger@uvena.de wrote:
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:40:26 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
On 08/31/2007 11:46:31 PM, Enrico Tröger wrote:
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:06:37 +0100, Nick Treleaven nick.treleaven@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi all,
when talking again about keybindings, let's talk about Ctrl-U and Ctrl-Shift-U. Do we want to change this, maybe really changing it to just toggle the case of current selection or do we want to leave it unset or just don't change it?
One reason for changing would be the mentioned Unicode insertion keybinding which is (non-changeable) Ctrl-Shift-U.
I think a toggle keybinding would be fine, defaulting to lowercase first if there's a mixture of cases used (can be useful when typing with caps lock accidently left on).
Good idea. I think we should change it unless anyone will complain loudly ;-).
Done in SVN r1860. New keybinding is Ctrl-Alt-U. If triggered on a lower-case selection it will convert the selection into upper-case and vice versa. If the selection contains characters in upper- and lower-case, all will be converted to lower-case. Use it again to get all into upper-case. In contrary to the previous behaviour the selection itself gets lost after conversion. I think this shouldn't matter but could be annoying when using it twice because you first have to reselect. Any opinions?
A nice side effect of the change is that the new code works also for non-Ascii letters like German Umlauts and probably some other non-English letters which have a case.
Regards, Enrico
On 07/09/07 20:09:25, Enrico Tröger wrote:
New keybinding is Ctrl-Alt-U. If triggered on a lower-case selection it will convert the selection into upper-case and vice versa. If the selection contains characters in upper- and lower-case, all will be converted to lower-case. Use it again to get all into upper-case. In contrary to the previous behaviour the selection itself gets lost after conversion. I think this shouldn't matter but could be annoying when using it twice because you first have to reselect. Any opinions?
I think it's best to restore the selection so that toggling a mixed case selection twice to get uppercase is easy to do, so I committed this in SVN.
Also it now uses the current word if there's no selection.
Regards, Nick