> ... parties are willing to meet an agreement...
The only agreement so far is that this feature is better implemented as a plugin.
> A middle ground could be a a View menu option to hide it and a preference setting to preserve the state with the info about a settable keyboard shorcut.
#2972 *already* does what you suggest. There is no "middle ground" because, as far as I can tell, Geany devs want the startup setting to be entirely removed from the PR.
Even if I address every concern to their satisfaction, they could simply not accept it. For any or no reason. There are open PRs going back years.
Hiding the menubar is unlikely to be added to Geany. The most likely way it would happen is if it is forced by GTK, like if some version of GTK4 deprecates the menubar and GTK5 removes it. Then they would have no choice but to find an alternative. But that would be a decade away.
> And middle users like me who wants sometimes to have it and sometimes not ...
Motivated users can hide the menubar with GeanyLua and some [scripts](https://github.com/xiota/geanylua-scripts). Or compile [Tweaks-UI](https://github.com/geany/geany-plugins/pull/1138)
or [Xi/Tweaks](https://github.com/xiota/geany-tweaks) plugins. Or even write their own script or plugin.
If you don't like GeanyLua, [peasy](https://github.com/kugel-/peasy/) is another scripting plugin you could try. It supports both Lua and Python. You would need to compile it yourself though.
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It seems to me that all the hard work had been done, and parties are willing to meet an agreement. As I understand it one side wants the option for the menu bar not to return and the other not want it to be mistakenly vanished. A middle ground could be a preference setting to hide/show it and another to preserve the state with a warning. That way experimenting newbies would be adverted, with the option to reverse things in preference dialog. Advaced users would have an always hidden menu bar (restored hidden state without keyboard shorcut is the same as always hidden no?). And middle users like me who wants sometimes to have it and sometimes not can have a unsetted keyboard shorcut documented either in the same preference dialog or in the manual. That a google search could reveal. What do you think?
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> So someone inexperienced, trying stuff out, can suddenly find themselves without a menu, and no discoverable way of getting it back to reverse the setting.
The PR is written to *not* hide the menubar if no keybinding is set. Whenever the menubar is hidden, including at startup, a status message is displayed showing the current keybinding. The same message *could* also be sent to stderr for users who do not have the status window visible.
Also, as ralf3u points out, the default keybinding for preferences is ctrl+alt+p. From there, the option could be unchecked. This procedure would be easy to add to the manual.
> ... vscode ... the menubar can be made visible by (AFAIK) fixed key ALT.
That shouldn't be difficult to implement. Just another hard-coded keybinding. But then alt is used in other keybindings, and it could be annoying to some users to have the menubar reappearing. So I would want another option to turn it off, creating yet another likely point of disagreement. (Modern versions of Firefox hide the menubar by default. Alt and alt+__ show the menubar. There is an option to prevent the menubar from being shown when alt alone is pressed.)
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> So someone inexperienced, trying stuff out, can suddenly find themselves without a menu, and no discoverable way of getting it back to reverse the setting.
The sentence sounds for me as if there would be no google. Just type there for example `geany hide menu bar`. In case the shortcut was hit accidentally, and the user doesn't know how to bring back the menu bar, I can imagine that in short time a solution will appear on google when typing `geany how to bring back menu bar`, like `let appear the "Preferences" with Ctrl+Alt+P, click on "Keybindings" and then look for the Action "Toggle menu bar"`.
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> I'm willing to write a plugin dedicated specifically to this feature provided I have minimal assurances it will be addressed by devs within a reasonable time frame.
Thats not really assurable for a project with all volunteer contributors who do not have scheduled guaranteed time available to address any Geany effort. All devs have very little time, and will spend it on things they are interested in adding, they would have to volunteer themselves that they are interested and if they have time available. And several devs have not been heard from for some time, in the current world I hope they are ok.
> I apologize for likely coming across as antagonistic about this. This is a sore spot for me.
No need to apologise, nothing was taken personally, and as you said next, the disagreement is about the _idea_ not individuals.
> I wanted to provide users with the option to be able to unconditionally hide the menu bar on startup (the default would be have been to restore the previous state from shutdown), but devs appeared to unconditionally reject allowing users to have this choice.
Correct, because although some may like them, providing options that can cause problems for other users may be a net loss for the overall Geany ecosystem and so some options are not accepted until they can be reasonably protected. Since it might be somewhat obscured from the looooong discussion on #2972 let me explain.
The issue with the unconditional hide on startup is that so far the PR has no unconditional and documentable way of reversing that. So someone inexperienced, trying stuff out, can suddenly find themselves without a menu, and no discoverable way of getting it back to reverse the setting.
Whilst Geany is not exactly a beginners tool, it does try not to set traps (at least not ones it knows about). That is also why the toggle menu keybinding is required to be unbound by default, so fumble fingers can't trigger it without users having to choose a binding, ie having to opt-in.
This is the same as vscode where the hide menubar item is unbound by default and in any case the menubar can be made visible by (AFAIK) fixed key `ALT`.
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I apologize for likely coming across as antagonistic about this. This is a sore spot for me. I feel that I made reasonable attempts to address core dev concerns. Yet it seems we have fundamental differences of opinions regarding providing users with *options*. I wanted to provide users with the *option* to be able to unconditionally hide the menu bar on startup (the *default* would be have been to restore the previous state from shutdown), but devs *appeared* to unconditionally reject this.
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> Regardless, I now believe the feature would be better implemented as a plugin.
>
> > Agree
I'm willing to write a plugin dedicated specifically to this feature provided I have minimal assurances it will be addressed by devs withing a reasonable time frame. (reasonable = I'm flexible. Give me a timeline and stick to it. It can be years if that's all that can be managed, as long as I am told ahead of time that it hasn't been forgotten.) The code has pretty much already been written.
> For now, it can be done with the GeanyLua plugin.
> > Yes thats the simplest solution for users who want the capability whilst that plugin continues to work.
I have personally attempted to keep that plugin working, partially because of this feature. Progress wasn't as fast as I would have preferred, but I believe I was successful.
> >But Geanylua has no maintainer (although it gets occasional contributions), and depends on an old version of Lua, so no idea how long it will last.
Something to deal with when it comes to pass...
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> > Well, thats what happens when all requests for changes are rejected.
> I did make changes to address the purported concerns.
Ok, I withdraw "all", but note that some changes were still not addressed as you yourself said.
> Regardless, I now believe the feature would be better implemented as a plugin.
[Agree](https://github.com/geany/geany/pull/2972#issuecomment-960356584)
> That way core geany devs get what they want (that the feature not be part of geany)
Nonetheless some devs did engage with #2972 and try to have it address their concerns, but as you said, you would not accept some of the requested changes (which is your right), so the PR was not merged (which is their right). Somebody else could of course provide a PR that addressed the devs concerns.
> For now, it can be done with the GeanyLua plugin.
Yes thats the simplest solution for users who want the capability whilst that plugin continues to work.
But Geanylua has no maintainer (although it gets occasional contributions), and depends on an old version of Lua, so no idea how long it will last.
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@asoymos
> I would also prefer that the state is preserved
If I recall, that was provided as a user-selectable option, with the default to preserve state.
> No 'View' menu option instead 'Hide/Show menu bar' and 'preserve state' preferences with a note that a keyboard shorcut could be set.
I have no problem with that, and believe it is already partially implemented in that PR. But, that PR is *dead*. I now believe that this feature would be better provided as a plugin. For now, it can be done with the GeanyLua plugin.
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> Well, thats what happens when all requests for changes are rejected.
I made changes to address the purported concerns.
> the unconditional "hide on startup" instead of the usual "restore whatever the state was when shutdown" that all other UI settings have
Unconditional hide on startup was provided as an *option*. The default was to restore state. That wasn't good enough. Devs didn't want the option to be present at all. This is the only point I was unwilling to compromise on, that the *option* remain.
Everything else you mention is easily resolved. For instance, Ctrl+M is commonly used across many applications to hide/show the menubar and could be listed in the manual.
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