[Geany-devel] Build System User Guide

Sun May 22 15:30:58 UTC 2011

Lex,

This is one of those cases where I wrote a long email because I didn't 
have (or didn't want to take) the time to write a short email.  Sorry.

If you read the next 5 paragraphs, you'll get the gist of what I'm 
saying.  I'd suggest you ignore the rest--consider it notes to myself.

It looks like the max width attribute is a fine thing for a page viewed 
in Firefox, but causes problems in konqueror 3.5.9.  

It seems that konqueror treats it both as a min and a max.  In other 
words, it fixes the line length at what is specified as the max, and, 
if I shrink the window width below that line length, the text will not 
wrap to below that length.  Instead I am forced to scroll horizontally 
to view the entire line.

I guess someone would say konqueror 3.5.9 is broken.  Someday I'd expect 
to upgrade to kde 4.<something> which would hopefully solve the 
problem.

So, I understand what you are saying now.  And, if you want to put the 
document somewhere where the max width attribute can be specified, 
that's fine with me.  (Because usually my browser is opened to the full 
width of the screen.)

OTOH, I wouldn't have a problem with your document on the wiki, because:
   * in konqueror (3.5.9) the text wraps to the width of the horizontal 
bars on the page, which, is about 78 characters according to wc
   * in Iceweasel, the text wraps to the the width of my browser window

I use konqueror as my default browser, with Java, Javascript, and 
cookies turned off.  (I turn on cookies and javascript for selected 
pages when needed.)

If I can't successfully use a page in konqueror, I'll open it in 
Iceweasel.

(This is for a number of reasons, among them, Iceweasel (Firefox) 
doesn't (easily?) allow multiple independent instances--if I do 
something to make Iceweasel crash, all "instances" of iceweasel crash.  
(Firefox might have addressed that in the last few years.)  In 
contrast, every instance of konqueror is a true independent 
instance--if one crashes, the others are not affected.)

On Sunday 22 May 2011 09:49:06 am Lex Trotman wrote:
> Text wrapping at the window width is what I mean by unconstrained, it
> is up to the browser how long lines are.  In Firefox 3.6.17 same
> behavior.
>
> But this is *not* good for users.

Well, maybe it depends on what side of a line you're on--I'll have to 
think about what I mean by line.  It is good for me, compared to some 
web pages that do not wrap at all with long lines, and then I have to 
scroll horizontally to read the end of a line.

> Document width for text contents should be limited, it should not
> straggle right across the page (see W3C WCAG 2.0 1.4.8 for
> recommendations, <80 characters and links to information on the
> physiology of reading long lines http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG)

I agree (very strongly) that document width should not exceed something 
like 60 to 80 characters (I'm agreeing with your <80).  But, I'm happy 
to adjust that to suit myself by adjusting the width of my browser 
window (when necessary).  

If the browser itself, or the HTML (with the max width attribute you 
mention set to some limit (like 40 ems?), limits the lines to 
reasonable lengths, so I don't have to adjust the width of my browser, 
that's peachy.

The two (or three) things I do not like are:
   * long lines that will not wrap so I have to scroll horizontally to 
read the entire line
   * web pages with text in columns that in some browsers (konqueror 
3.5.9) will not wrap to the displayed width of that column, so I have 
to scroll horizontally within that column
   * even worse are the pages that won't let me horizontally scroll 
within that column and I have to C&P to an editor to read the text 
(fortunately, at least usually, the C&P, picks up the entire text even 
though it is not visible on my browser screen.

I guess I should experiment with the HTML max width attribute to see 
what it does. 

Ok, I did some experimentation.  Maybe (probably?) konqueror 3.5.9 is 
just a broken browser.

In Iceweasel, I have no problem with the max width attribute.  It limits 
the length of the line even if the browser window is wider than that, 
and allows me to shorten the line by shrinking the window width to 
below the max width set by the max width attribute.

OTOH, in konqueror, it creates one of those behaviors that I hate.  If 
the width of the browser is wider than the length of the line set by 
the max width attribute: no problem, it behaves just like Iceweasel.

However, if I try to shrink the width of the browser below that width, 
the line will not rewrap to fit the width of the window.  Instead, the 
part of the line wider than the browser window is cut off, and I have 
to scroll horizontally to see it.

Apparently konqueror 3.5.9 treats the max width as both a min and max.

> No, this time its not just me being a cranky opinionated so-and-so
> :-)

If you are being a cranky opinionated so-and-so, I have to claim 
membership in the same group. ;-)

Randy Kramer

> > Konqueror (Konqueror 3.5.9 (on kde 3.5.10)  on Debian 5.0):  The
> > behavior here is not as nice.  The colored bars at the top and
> > bottom of the page are of a fixed width (which probably varies
> > based on the font and font size used??).  On my main screen, the
> > bars are about half the witdth of the screen.  The text wraps to
> > the width of those bars and does not adjust based on the width of
> > the window.
>
> Not sure what page you are looking at, if its the Geany wiki then it
> sounds broken, AFAICT there are no instructions to limit the width in
> the HTML.
>
> > (Just as an aside, I should point out that this is better than some
> > web pages where I can't even scroll horizontally to read a complete
> > line (maybe when the page is in the form of a table with columns
> > and the text is in one of those columns).  The best I can do then
> > is copy and paste the text to a plain text editor (or, usually,
> > open it in Firefox) to read the entire text.)
>
> Those websites are just plain broken!!!
>
> > Anyway, so to me, the text is not unconstrained (by which I would
> > mean long lines of text that don't wrap under any circumstance).
>
> Wrong meaning, sorry, I mean not constrained by the HTML,
> specifically the max-width attribute set to <= about 40em.
>
> Cheers
> Lex
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